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Caellach Marellus
Nephtys Ventures inc
83
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Posted - 2011.10.13 18:35:00 -
[1] - Quote
Saxon Hawke wrote:Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:How you expect subjects of a occupying authority to participate in the political operations of the previous government that was forcibly ejected is beyond me. It is the right of any citizen of a democracy to have a say in who governs them. If you deny that right, you strip the legitimacy from the system.
Considering the situation at the time, and the blackout that was in place, are you really sure you're pointing fingers at the right side in terms of who was denying you the right?
The Federation was without a leader and elections had to be conducted, the occupied systems were unfortunately ineligible to vote due to the actions of the system's occupying forces. The elections could not hold indefinitely until the situation was resolved, it's an unfortunate circumstance, and I didn't want Roden either. But regardless it was the best path forward considering the circumstances.
The Senate debated it for some time before choosing on the best course of action, you do them dishonour if you suggest they hadn't thought out every possible option fully in this matter.
... you know a situation is so cut and dry when you even find me defending the modern political beast that the Federation has evolved into. |
Caellach Marellus
Nephtys Ventures inc
84
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Posted - 2011.10.13 18:54:00 -
[2] - Quote
Saxon Hawke wrote:I will not disagree with the assessment that there are certainly more parties to blame than the Senate, but that does not change the fact that the current President of the Federation was chosen in flawed election.
As I, and others, have pointed out the circumstances that were used to justify the subversion of democracy are gone. The blackout no longer exists. Planetary occupations are no longer happening.
The corrective is simple: If the Supreme Court were to rule the Voting Prohibition Act illegal, it would nullify the election that followed it. A new election would be called and all citizens of the Federation would be allowed to participate.
Great, so we do that and hypothetically Roden wins a new 5 year term, which not only has extended his time in office, but breaks the law that no President can run twice. So to recover one issue in history, you want to break another law?
Alternatively realise that in a few years time there will be elections and all things hoping, all members of the Federation will be able to vote. Digging up the past in matters like this is pointless and serves little purpose. Make your voice heard next time, and if you want to make sure that's going to happen then I suggest fight for your right to vote if the STPRO forces attempt to retake your system. |
Caellach Marellus
Nephtys Ventures inc
86
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Posted - 2011.10.15 12:55:00 -
[3] - Quote
Jon Engel wrote:The Federation is not wanted by the Intaki of Placid. Deal with it and stop trying to convince the capsuleers otherwise.
Minorities should stop speaking for majorities, unless you'd like to back that claim up with some actual evidence other than examples of the minority breaking away in the past, or the "me and my mates" attitude that many voices of the separatist movement come with these days. |
Caellach Marellus
Nephtys Ventures inc
86
|
Posted - 2011.10.15 18:06:00 -
[4] - Quote
Saul Ambrye wrote:Caellach Marellus wrote:Minorities should stop speaking for majorities, unless you'd like to back that claim up with some actual evidence other than examples of the minority breaking away in the past, or the "me and my mates" attitude that many voices of the separatist movement come with these days. Are you prepared to provide evidence that desire for autonomy is a minority position other than repeated claims that the blessed and righteous Federation is beloved by all of its people that many voices of the nationalist movement come up with these days? Because I'd hate to think a double-standard was being applied.
In this case, a general lack of evidence is evidence itself. If the majority of Intaki wanted secession we'd have seen mass protest and uprising, as well as open support toward the Caldari from a majority populace and not a minority as was with the seperatist movement.
I don't have to provide evidence here, as I'm talking about the status quo and the way things are. Intaki is part of the Federation and her citizens are not showing a mass degree of backlash against this situation. Now prove that things aren't what they seem on the surface.
Oh and less of the "Blessed and Righteous" crap, it's the Federation we're talking about, not the Godhead Empire. Also being called a Nationalist is quite insulting, I pride myself on neutrality and the advantage of being able to pick out idiotic statements on either side of these pointless empire wars. I expect a good bottle of Vodka as an apology. |
Caellach Marellus
Nephtys Ventures inc
86
|
Posted - 2011.10.15 19:44:00 -
[5] - Quote
Saul Ambrye wrote:Argument from ignorance, not entirely unsurprising.
Not really, I could bunch several quotes of your reply here, as they all seem to revolve around the same point so I'll say this.
The Intaki majority being happy with being part of the Federation would not be considered news and as such wouldn't be reported, the opposite would. In this case absence of proof really is proof itself.
If anything were happening the news feeds would be all over it, with political commentary on either side trying to spin the story to best suit their ideals and goals. The fact that there is no story to be had can only suggest one thing, and it doesn't take a genius to work it out.
Quote:Well, given the fact that the last time there were major demonstrations taking place in Placid, people were brutally repressed, severed from their families, exiled and left to rot at the mercy of narcotics peddlers, I doubt your premise that lack of vocalization necessarily proves anything about people's inclinations in this regard.
Actually the only major demonstration in Intaki history was when they poured into the polling stations and mass voted for Foiritan. The uprisings during the Caldari-Gallente war that lead to the formation of the Syndicate were minor. Roughly 5,000 people sounds a big number, but when we're talking of an entire ethnicity of a planet, it's a minority.
Quote:Just because the exact things you listed aren't happening does not remotely advance the validity of your claims.
So what is actually happening, beyond the whole "Me and my mates" scenario I described? You've asked me for my proof, where is the proof that the majority of the Intaki wish secession from the Federation?
Quote:Quote:Intaki is part of the Federation and her citizens are not showing a mass degree of backlash against this situation. Now prove that things aren't what they seem on the surface. You haven't proven that is the surface, you've only presumptuously declared it so. That it emanated from your mouth does not make it gospel.
Then show me different, burden of proof lies with the accuser and seeing as you're pointing a finger here I'm sure you've plenty of evidence to support your side of things? As you said, we wouldn't want double standards here would we?
Scotch also works, infact most alcohol is fine with me. |
Caellach Marellus
Nephtys Ventures inc
86
|
Posted - 2011.10.15 20:38:00 -
[6] - Quote
Jon Engel wrote:Caellach Marellus wrote:Jon Engel wrote:The Federation is not wanted by the Intaki of Placid. Deal with it and stop trying to convince the capsuleers otherwise. Minorities should stop speaking for majorities, unless you'd like to back that claim up with some actual evidence other than examples of the minority breaking away in the past, or the "me and my mates" attitude that many voices of the separatist movement come with these days. The Government of Intaki told the enforcers of Federal Authority to leave, twice.
Asking the Federal Navy to adhere to an old agreement when the Intaki joined the Federation is not proof of them wishing to leave the Federation.
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Caellach Marellus
Nephtys Ventures inc
86
|
Posted - 2011.10.16 16:05:00 -
[7] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:yet some people still blame the lax security of the system upon the Federation, even though they haven't been responsible for that duty in over two years now.
Completely forgetting that the low security status of the Intaki system is down to the initial agreement with the Federation that they would police their own space and didn't want Federal Navy in their space? |
Caellach Marellus
Nephtys Ventures inc
86
|
Posted - 2011.10.17 12:06:00 -
[8] - Quote
Jon Engel wrote:
Demanding the Federal Navy leave after the Militia worked so "hard" to take it back from Caldari occupation. A military is nothing more than force behind a Government. Without force, a Government has no authority. The Gallenteans have no authority in Intaki. Despite people's assertions otherwise.
The Militia has been asked to leave, despite being manipulated by Concord to be forced to host a FDU station. I'm not gonna play connect the dots for you, but even a flag waving sodomite Federal like yourself can see that not everything is as it seems.
This entire post is inaccurate on so many levels I'm not even sure where to begin.
I do suggest you check your facts and learn your history, you're doing a great dishonour to the people of Intaki if you can't be bothered to at least be knowledgeable of the facts before you start trying to talk on their behalf.
And I'm not Federal, I quite happily sit as a neutral, just one who likes to pick at terrible arguments made by either side of the fence. In this case I disagree with you and your terrible argument in the vain hope you'll at least learn something from your errors and maybe be a little more understanding of the situation you're trying to control in future. |
Caellach Marellus
Nephtys Ventures inc
86
|
Posted - 2011.10.17 16:23:00 -
[9] - Quote
That was a very long winded reply but for taking the quote out of context let me remind you that it was directed at Jon Engel who clearly stated
Jon Engel wrote:
The Federation is not wanted by the Intaki of Placid. Deal with it and stop trying to convince the capsuleers otherwise.
That was a minority speaking for a majority, you might not claim to speak for the majority, but others are. Quoting me out of context, calling me ignorant and uninformed and then using that misquote from a neutral point of view as evidence as to why the Intaki should secede from the Federation goes beyond scraping the barrel to find things that fit your argument.
Quite frankly I stick with my assessment in a previous discussion on this forum with regards to dispute between the Intaki and Federation, I'd bang all your bloody heads together. |
Caellach Marellus
Nephtys Ventures inc
86
|
Posted - 2011.10.17 16:49:00 -
[10] - Quote
Saxon Hawke wrote:Caellach Marellus wrote:I'd bang all your bloody heads together. Threats of violence are hardly an appropriate way of showing that my argument about the intolerance of nationalistic Gallente is incorrect.
Nono, you misunderstand.
I'd bang the heads of the the seperatists and the U-Nats together. Also how does such comment from a neutral prove your point about the U-Nats? |
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Caellach Marellus
Nephtys Ventures inc
86
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Posted - 2011.10.17 22:59:00 -
[11] - Quote
Saxon Hawke wrote:Do you stand for democracy and freedom or against it? If you are for, then lets have a fair and full election. If you are against, then its best the people of Intaki know who stands opposed to their liberties.
But you can't have a fair election, not 3 years into a term with the value of hindsight. The only way you'd have a truly fair election is to go back in time, break the Caldari hold on Placid and liberate the systems from STPRO control.
You've two major problems with that plan though. |
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